@aral And that’s an order.

@geerlingguy - Is it a mesh node of some sort? That Pi hanging off the side with some kind of antenna connected is making me wonder.

@geerlingguy you’re up to no good. That much is certain 😜

@geerlingguy a bigger time-travel diode to go even before than 1995? 🤔

@geerlingguy ubuntu

@geerlingguy

Doom?
Crysis?
Far Cry?

All three ? 🤔

@geerlingguy
I s-pi with my little i a gnss hat and a Rpi.
And a suitable gap in that aged unit.

@geerlingguy Haiku? 😎

@geerlingguy it better be Doom…

@geerlingguy YEY. now Google Adsense will market more timeserver gear to me \o/

@geerlingguy No rubidium oscillator? No OCXO? What about holdover! Oh my! I'm looking forward to another time/pi project... If that is what this is going to be!

@geerlingguy nice to see you're back to your lab shenanigans. Hope you're feeling better.

I see GPS and some oven controlled oscillator. An upgrade of sorts, what's the Jimmy marking on the board ?

De verdad que a veces me paro a pensar y me digo a mí mismo, es imposible que se pueda usar esta tecnología para hacer el bien, y cada vez que lo pienso la realidad me da la razón de la peor forma posible.

@Shine_McShine 🤦‍♂️

@Shine_McShine *inserte GIF de Castle*

@Shine_McShine Ni me sorprende, hay empresas que se dedican a "resucitar" a los fallecidos para que "hables" con ellos, vamos, que hasta la IA les está quitando el trabajo a los médiums, bueno, aunque en este caso ni me importa, total, en ambos casos mienten.

@Shine_McShine es lo más distópico que he oído en los últimos tiempos y no será porque no hayan cosas...

@Shine_McShine ...

@Shine_McShine esto no era un capitulo de black mirror?

@Shine_McShine madre mía... Parece una noticia de MundoToday 😓 vaya panorama se nos está quedando.

@Shine_McShine veo un fallo ahí. Si alguien tiene cero interés en escuchar batallitas, ¿Qué interés va a tener en leerlas?

@Shine_McShine veía un reel de una mujer en la malvada Instagram que decía como la economía de servicios reemplazaba la comunidad, antes apra ir al aeropuerto te llevaba tu familia o amigos, ahora pides un uber, ellos te traían sopa o medicamentos si estabas enfermo, ahora la pides a domicilio, antes pedías azucar o algo que necesitabas ya al vecino, ahora lo pides por internet, hemos cambiado por comodidad, la eficiencia trae mucha soledad

@Shine_McShine Lo interesante será saber cuanta gente acaba usando esta mierda.

@Shine_McShine No había una que llamaba a tu familiar y te pasaba un informe de como estaba, mientras esta lo entretenía, o algo así?

@Shine_McShine

@Shine_McShine que pena de verdad

@Shine_McShine No tengo palabras :(

@Shine_McShine Una sociedad llena de zumbados. Muy divertido todo

@Shine_McShine A este punto hemos visto cosas tan bisarras del mundo que esto ya ni siquiera sorprende, lo cual debería preocuparnos, por que ya llegamos al punto donde lo distópico comienza a parecernos "normal"

@Shine_McShine Ya puedo oír a cierto alto cargo de mi trabajo: "vale, pero incluirá un resumen en versión podcast de 15 minutos? Porque leer el libro es largo". No tengo suficientes calcetines (preferentemente sudaos) pa meter en la boca a estos entes.
Qué triste es contemplar tanta deshumanización.

@Shine_McShine buah yo creo que @CorioPsicologia nos contó esto en @PostApocalipsisNau ? A mí me lo contó mi padre y me dio un escalofrío. Prefiero intentar desver estas movidas. Que horror.

Espero que mi hija jamás piense hacerme algo así, sería un balazo en el pecho.

@Shine_McShine Su reputisima estampa.¿Pero en que cabezacabe eso? Hay alguien en mi familia que el trato alos mayores es algo que la hacesaltar y con razon.

Si ve esto, la da algo

@Shine_McShine en Spain han tenido la misma idea, te la venden en la SER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcidPkhyBeo

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.versedia.versedia

@Shine_McShine el padre de una conocida está entrenando a una IA para "que sea él" para que sus nietas puedan "preguntarle cosas" cuando él no esté

@Rataunderground ni saben ni quieren, que hablando con varios no se imaginan un mundo sin esto.

@Rataunderground Tengo compañeros que incluso presumen abiertamente de llevar meses sin escribir una sola línea de código.

I have many more thoughts, particularly around genAI and Free software licensing, and law v ethics in the context of genAI, but those are not for today.

@neil you strike me as an eminently sensible person, I'll be very interested in hearing where you land.

@neil

What would one move to?

@neil Exactly my concerns.

@neil My thinking is that it sucks a great deal, but it's not something that I need to rush to deal with. I'm already using openwrt a lot more at home (I used to have a wifi AP running debian), and most of the AI use that I've seen so far has been more on the infrastructure side (dak, voting software, etc) than individual packages. But I'm going to start investigating other distributions..

@neil On the same boat.

#3 looks to me like a “fruit from the poisoned tree” thing — a tool with questionable, at least ethically, origins and operations

@neil Well, with even the Linux kernel accepting the use of LLMs... maybe it's time to start looking towards BSD, maybe even specifically NetBSD as they seem clearest on the case.

Code runs deep and sometimes fast and so does this issue.

@neil went through the same cycle yesterday, but the only system I saw which is hard "no" mentioned was NetBSD which, tbh, looks a pain to use.

After pondering, I think the real issue for me isn't Debian, it's the kernel. Linus and the foundation opening that door means *every* Linux distro is "tainted". I see no issue with a distro allowing it if I can actually move to one that doesn't, but the kernel is the kernel. 🤬

@neil I am not sure if this is worth the effort. In a few years all distros/maintainers will permit using genAI. Perhaps there will be "vinyl" distributions without :)

@neil also as a developer, it might be hypocritical to say absolutely no to AI.

There are some use cases that are compelling such as the way it can explain code to me or how can assist me with languages that I know but I am not good at yet for example rust.

For these use cases I would want to use some AI. And I imagine this is true of other developers. Even Debian developers. And that would be responsible use AI, right? This would not be creating slop necessarily.

I can understand that they also some cases where LLMs either by design, or due to insufficient oversight introduce security vulnerabilities into software and these I am concerned about.

So, umm... How to get the balance right? An outright ban for me is too much. But if it is allowed in limited and restricted circumstances only, wouldn't you say yes to that?

@neil appreciate your thoughtfulness on this, even if I don't necessarily entirely share your values.

My issue with this whole thing comes down to detectability and trust. If I point at a git commit, authored by me, and I pinky swear I didn't use an LLM to write, design, or coach me through any part of it, is that sufficient to meet a project's "no AI" policy?

@neil i'm personally going to wait a while. these new rules mean that contributers are responsible for ensuring their contributions are copyright-free, and AFAIK debian's semi-militant "foss-only" stance remains in play.

is this going to be a template for malicious compliance? "no, sorry, you can't prove you didn't use copyrighted code". — i don't know.

is this going to be a way to rubber-stamp non-foss code? — i don't know.

wait and see…

@neil just use fedora

@neil it’s got me eyeing up BSDs of all things.

@neil you are using AI whether you like it or not.

Unless you want to run an OS and software that predates llms.

It's allowed for kernel stuff, you can bet Microsoft and probably apple are using it.

Haven't looked into what netbsd/openbsd are doing

@neil not being very gifted when it comes to think before acting I moved half of my homelab to NetBSD while I think seriously what would be the next step I'll take.
I wish you luck and thanks for raising the subject.

@neil

3) is by everyone. A couple of years back, my employer asked everyone how they got to work, because they "needed" it for some ESG report, but AI is excluded from newer reports (and that is even legal) and if you mention it, you just get a lecture about how AI is a necessity for the future of the company. My unwillingness to use it outside of very narrow field already got me in hot water.

4) As another log time user, I decided to wait what happens to both Linux and Debian for a while.

@neil The question is if there are any distributions that committed not to use AI. Neither now, nor in the future.
And further more Debian is practically the standard on servers.

@neil I wasn't particularly it must be said. Debian is primarily a librarian not a developer. Yes it has some development in the classic sense but it's basically an enormous library. Librarians tend to dislike excluding things, even bad things, or things from bad people.

@neil It's such an interesting question, and I see several angles. As a user who can't code, Claude Code has let me make things which are incredibly niche, just for myself - a huge positive. On the other hand, would I want AI code in my OS? I wouldn't trust it that far, yet.

@neil Debian was the OS I planned to switch to, in part because I didn't see this coming either.
I probably should have given just how much it's infiltrated everything else and my cynicism over it.

I agree with what Elementary said: "you still have the problem of major underlying infrastructure including the Linux kernel itself. I think we have to take a harm reduction approach right now and do our best with what we have control over"

I don't have control over much, but I can change my OS.

@neil I think "environmental harm" needs to come with some sort of disclaimer.

In the US, yeah, I have no idea how the way they're building datacenters there is legal.

Here in Sweden they run on 100% renewable energy and don't use up water.

I feel the whole environmental debate around LLMs has centered on what happens in the US, with very little actual data shown.

https://ourworldindata.org/how-much-energy-do-data-centers-and-artificial-intelligence-use

@neil I am not overly surprised by this, it is a pragmatic rather than political approach. Banning LLM use is a lot harder (impossible) to police than the whole Debian "free software" stance.

It is a little disappointing that Debian of all distros couldn't have chosen to take a moral high ground on this though, as futile as it may be.

LLM/GenAI is super accessible, it has replaced search for many developers, because search is broken, the next step to having it generate code is a small shift from copy-pasting the odd line from docs or websites. So much coding is gluing together boilerplate and examples anyway. They could have "banned" GenAI use in Debian code, but this would never have stopped GenAI use in Debian code.

The current environmental and economic issues of LLM/GenAI are worth making a stand about though.

As a fairly pragmatic Debian user of some 30+ years I am conflicted. Though as a developer, for work purposes, I do make use of LLM tech — so I am myself tainted.

@neil I can't actually recommend that you wade in very far, but if you do, you will see that many developers voted for options that focused on environmental (and other harms) of AI. It just happens that the winning option chose to pretend those harms don't exist. It's like "shitty elected leader $Y of country $X"; as a non-$Y supporter you have to live not only with a shitty leader, but also the reputational damage to being from country $X.

@neil The environmental concerns are tricky; I'd condemn the crazy huge datacentre buildouts - but locally run AIs aren't that bad - and most people don't know the huge power usage of CI systems that we've depended on for decades; there's also lots of different types of AI usage - the 'agent' stuff is very heavy compute, reviewing code or small rework isn't that bad.

@neil I presume that this decision by the debian developers will impact the devuan fork as well?

@neil I think I am a bit less surprised - I have seen a lot of pro-AI posts on Debian lists recently (not subscribed to, just other people have highlighted). I sadly think it's inevitable that genAI will make its way into pretty much every Linux distro that is widely used, in the same way as systemd did.

Having been an environmental campaigner in the past, I've also seen how easy it is for people to think 'well my emissions don't matter' (for whatever reason, e.g. China burns lots of coal).

@neil meanwhile, here I am, using Ubuntu, with a local AI installed in it through LM Studio to play around and learn how to use AI to inflate my resume and earn more money.

@neil

Unfortunately there's no guaruntee that someone working in open source is actually doing it because they think deeply about ethics or have a moral compass beyond "No one should tell me what to do on puter!"

@neil A question that I ponder is why have those in favour of AI not forked to be (say) DebAIn? Nothing in the license prohibits that right? Seems like a quicker plan for all involved, although I think the final outcome (whatever that ends up being) would not change.

@neil Debian is big volunteer driven organisation. It is obvious that there is no consensus to strictly define borders for LLMs. So we get "we are not forbidding anything at the moment" memo.

@neil Another thing that isn’t discussed. Open source relying on a closed (not just source, models and every other way) and paid system makes it no longer open source.

The idea to be able to have a whole system, a whole ecosystem, of fully free software is a key concept that is now broken more and more. Imagine if open source ran on closed sourced compilers.

Open source is, imho, falling apart in one more way because of this.

@neil Moving from Debian to what, though? Most of the best distros are downstream of that.

@neil Alternatively, this problem largely goes away when the AI bubble bursts. Maybe.

@neil For a distro that consistently selects stable software, allowing AI in, this clearly unstable and buggy tech, seems clearly out of place. Not to mention the moral pit it's found in, Debian stands for more than just stability, there are principles that guide its development as well, and these are also not met by allowing AI use. And we can do away with the "responsible" subjective crutch. Everyone is going to think their own selfish use "responsible".

@neil

You are aware, that due to the fact "genAI" for code exists for lots of months already, there is practically 0 chance you can find any distro free of that ?

And besides, Linus was OK that the maintainers use genAI code as long its still being reviewed by humans. This would mean if leaving Debian due to genAI code the consequence would mean to also stop using Linux for same reason.

@neil yeah I'm toying with the idea of one of the BSDs (prob netbsd), I think the other option would be going Gentoo but I've never tried it before. Perhaps I should. 🤔
Obv the nuclear option would be Linux from scratch which I used to run, but I'm not sure I want to dedicate that much of my spare time to it. (I remember how much it took before)

@neil With you on number 3.
Yes, I realize Nepal is remote, but hello, heat waves?

@neil

I'ld would be surprised, if #Debian would take environmental aspects into account. I mean, I just came back from a #DebConf, 12000 km flight per direction. I was one of the few people opting for the #vegan lunch. Flying and using animal products is as bad as data centres. So far, we don't care. Sorry!

@internetarchive save something before it disappears means downloading it to local storage, not saving it to a list on IA. Can't tell you how many times something I saved to a list or my favorites has been taken down because some grubby company decided it no longer what it claims to own should be archived

@internetarchive

@internetarchive

@internetarchive

@velvetmolotov Aquí tienes una descripción de texto alternativo para la imagen:

**Descripción de la imagen:** Cubierta de libro de fondo blanco. En la parte superior izquierda, el logo de la editorial Seix Barral, un arquero estilizado en negro. Debajo, el nombre de la autora "Alana S. Portero" en letras rojas grandes, y el título "Cosamala" en letras negras grandes.

La mayor parte de la cubierta está ocupada por una ilustración de una figura andrógina o femenina, de piel clara, en cuclillas y mirando directamente al frente. La figura tiene grandes cuernos de carnero negros y texturizados que sobresalen de su cabeza. Lleva un antifaz negro que cubre sus ojos, los cuales son de un rojo brillante. Su cabello es oscuro.

El brazo izquierdo de la figura está casi completamente cubierto de negro, mientras que el derecho es claro. Sus piernas y pies son de piel clara, pero la parte inferior de las pantorrillas y los pies están manchados o cubiertos de negro de forma irregular, como si hubieran sido sumergidos en tinta. Detrás de la cabeza de la figura, a la derecha, hay un gran círculo rojo sólido, que parece un sol poniente o naciente. El estilo general es de ilustración con contornos negros definidos y un contraste fuerte entre blanco, negro y rojo.

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts wow, enhorabuena!!! Qué ganas de leerlo!!

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts ooooooooooh que bieeeeeeeeeen esta cae desde el principio XD

@velvetmolotov Wow, ¡qué pintaza, qué ganas de leerla! @mardelvallearts

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts menuda portada 🤩

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts estoy colgando del techo desde que te he leído en telegram.

also: tremenda portada, Mar

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot omg que emoción

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot ya lo he propuesto en el club de lectura. Vaaaaaamos!!!!!!

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

@velvetmolotov la premisa tiene pintaza, y la ilustración de cubierta es una auténtica maravilla. Qué ganas de leerla, Alana @mardelvallearts

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot Ay dios, ay dios, ay dios. Me acabas de hacer profúndamente feliz. Que ganazas!

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts Enhorabuenaaaaa!!! 😍
Deseando leerla

@velvetmolotov Mucho éxito @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot

@velvetmolotov Bua, me encanta!! ¡Qué ganas de leer la novela! ¡Enhorabuena! @mardelvallearts

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts Cae seguro, que La Mala Costumbre me encantó

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot qué guay, enhorabuenísima ✨

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot la mejor noticia, enhorabuena, bellezas❤️❤️❤️

@velvetmolotov tremendo autorregalo de cumple que me voy a hacer

@mardelvallearts

@velvetmolotov 🙏😔Alana🫂🙈

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot Enhorabona! 👏👏👏

@velvetmolotov felicitaciones y bendiciones :) @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts ¡Felicidades! 🥳

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot El 14 de octubre? no era el 30 de septiembre? No podemos esperar maaaaaaaaaas 🥹

@velvetmolotov la leeremos, la leeremos con cariño y con ganas, abrazos @mardelvallearts @TeLoDescribot

@velvetmolotov @mardelvallearts Buah, me muero de ganas ♥️♥️♥️

@velvetmolotov, aquí, llorando como un bobo que soy con Antonio y su familia.

Desde que termine esta voy con Cosamala.

Alt...

Foto de la portada de La mala costumbre encima de una tumbona y una piscina al fondo.